Taylor Nolan TRANSCRIPT 8/13/20
Taylor Nolan: Hi!
Ziwe: How are you doing, Taylor?
Taylor Nolan: I am doing well. I just finished watching Josh's part on there, that was fantastic.
Ziwe: What is your review of Josh Sharp as a black woman?
Taylor Nolan: Um, you know, entertaining. But I don't think, I don't think we'd be a vibe, but it’s okay.
Ziwe: Taylor, how are you doing?
Taylor Nolan: I'm doing good. I'm excited for this.
Ziwe: I'm excited to have you.
Taylor Nolan: And a bit nervous, but I’m very excited.
Ziwe: Don't be nervous. I thought you were really thoughtful on Alexis Haines's podcast, Recovering from Reality. So that's how I got familiar with your work. But first question, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much emotional intelligence does one need to marry the Bachelor?
Taylor Nolan: This coming Bachelor?
Ziwe: Nick Viall, perhaps.
Taylor Nolan: Oh, Nick.
Taylor Nolan holds up six fingers.
Ziwe: Is that out of 10? Out of 100?
Taylor Nolan: I'll say that’s out of 10.
Ziwe: Would you consider, consider kissing a dude that you've watched make out with 30 other women a radical feminist act?
Taylor Nolan: Somewhat, yeah.
Ziwe: Mmm, why?
Taylor Nolan: Because, I mean, I feel like I probably should think on this one, a little bit longer. I'm not like super quick, but I mean, I think when you zoom out, right, it's like if guys, if…I don't see why not. Because if it's not feminist, then it’s more along a patriarchal standpoint, right, of like monogamy and being a part of the patriarchy, right? He should only be kissing one of us or we should only be able to choose one person. Whereas, if he can kiss a bunch of us, and we can all kiss the same person, and then can we not have that same right to do that too? I don't know if that makes sense but that's my thought process.
Ziwe: I feel that. I've always, I've always, I used to be a huge Bachelor, Bachelor in Paradise fan, and then I kind of fell off when the Corrine scandal happened, and I always wonder whether my watching it was enforcing heteronormativity, or not, but I, I think it's an interesting discussion so. Also, by the way, the comments are asking if you are black woman. How do you identify?
Taylor Nolan: I identify as biracial. I'm half black, half white.
Ziwe: Shout out to that. And we love that. Now, many have attributed you finding a white fiancé in Derek PAHth. PERth. PEHth?
Taylor Nolan: PAYth.
Ziwe: PAYth? Okay, so many have attributed you finding a white fiancé in Derek Peth on The Bachelor as your redemption arc, with The Bachelor fandom like. So how was that interracial relationship?
Taylor Nolan: Yeah, so, he considers himself a person of color. His mom's Brazilian.
Ziwe: Oh.
Taylor Nolan: It was annoying that it’s seen as my redemption story because it makes it seem like he was this like this white savior coming to save me, the damsel in distress, which I was not. I mean, in some ways, yes. Like, I can handle myself. But yeah, I think there was, like, as an interracial relationship, it wasn't…it definitely lacked that like healing nature that I think you get when you do date someone who is a person of color.
Ziwe: I feel that. How many white men have you dated?
Taylor Nolan: Mostly white.
Ziwe: Really?
Taylor Nolan: Yes.
Ziwe: Interesting. So you're really, you're a sexologist or described yourself as a sexologist?
Taylor Nolan: In training.
Ziwe: In training. So, can we talk about sex or is that, is that…
Taylor Nolan: Oh, absolutely.
Ziwe: Okay, so when it comes to like having sex with men of the same race or other races, do people have different, do different races have different nutting styles?
Taylor Nolan: Not that I've been made aware of. Um, I just finished a Live with King Noire and had him and his partner Jasmine on my podcast and we did an episode called “Bust an Ethical Nut.” They’re sex workers. They have a whole thing that they do, but, yeah, no, not, not that I'm aware of.
Ziwe: Interesting. And so you mentioned that sex addiction is not real. What does that mean?
Taylor Nolan: Yeah, so, like this is really controversial, and I think takes, takes a lot of conversation around but, um, you know, I look at AASECT which is like the overarching accreditation for sex educators, sex therapists, all of that, and they have not found any research to like solidify and have an agreed upon definition of what sex addiction is, and a lot that we look at as sex addiction in our culture is, is because we lack a sex positive lens, right, so if someone is, you know, paying for sex, we label them as a sex addict, and that's not. Um, so it's a very controversial topic. There's a lot to it, but yeah because AASECT does not identify this as an actual disorder, and DSM, which certainly has its own problems to it, but there's been no fully credible institution that has like agreed upon and identified sex addiction as a thing, so.
Ziwe: Wow.
Taylor Nolan: Yeah.
Ziwe: Would you…you've had sex. What race, what was the best sex of your life? What race was the person?
Taylor Nolan: He's Jordanian, Iranian, Palestinian, and Irish.
Ziwe: Shout out. Yeah! Yeah, buddy!
Taylor Nolan: Shout out!
Ziwe: Okay, so you are, you formerly were a mental health counselor. Do you think that black people need therapy?
Taylor Nolan: I think that everyone needs therapy. Yes, and I think that black people, especially, should have easy access to therapy. Yes.
Ziwe: Okay.
Taylor Nolan: [audio cuts out]
Ziwe: Mm, I feel that. I understand what you're saying. I understand where you're coming from. Now here's a question for you, so I actually don't think you got a really fair shake on The Bachelor. Because I was, I re-watched it recently, and you were kind of called uppity, which I thought was kind of like coded, like it was coded.
Taylor Nolan: Yep.
Ziwe: So basically, is unscripted television as racist as it looks?
Taylor Nolan: I think there's definitely an undertone of racism that I would say it presents itself with these microaggressions that I don't think the average viewer is able to pick up on, but certainly is absorbing.
Ziwe: Mhm. What was the most racist bullshit that happened to you on, on either of those shows?
Taylor Nolan: Ahhh, I'm saying what came from the fan base afterwards, mostly. Yeah. After everything that happened with Corinne on my Bachelor season, I had many people, DMing me telling me I was an ugly n*gger, telling me that how dare I be so rude to her, all these things. Yeah, mostly from the fan base.
Ziwe: Tough. I'm sorry, that sucks.
Taylor Nolan: Yeah.
Ziwe: Would you say that interrupting other girls to talk to Nick Viall is a form of reparations?
Taylor Nolan: [Laughs] It’s a sad form! I’d suggest some higher quality reparations.
Ziwe: So that's a no. Do you support reparations by the way?
Taylor Nolan: Yes, I do.
Ziwe: Would you be committed to paying reparations to all the brown skinned girls in the comments? Hashtag Black is King.
Taylor Nolan: Yes.
Ziwe: Okay, good to know. Everyone, please drop for Josh and Taylor. Drop your Venmos. Now, would you say that the drama between you and Corinne set the stage for a race war?
Taylor Nolan: Mmm, yes.
Ziwe: Really?
Taylor Nolan: It…I think, so before I was on the 2-on-1, it was supposed to be Jasmine on the 2-on-1.
Ziwe: Wow.
Taylor Nolan: And I don't know, maybe it wasn't intended on their end, but you know, most of my intro, most of my intro was around me being biracial and the struggle with that and like not feeling like I fit in anywhere and feeling like it's difficult to like feel accepted. And then felt like I was pitted against this person who was kind of like the epitome of white privilege. All amongst, all amidst Trump becoming president, so it definitely felt like there were racial components to it, whether I'm making that up in my head or making it more personal than they really were, don't know, but it did feel racial.
Ziwe: Wow. So how old are you when you discovered sort of like the racial context of having, of being mixed race?
Taylor Nolan: I would say I was probably like 10-11.
Ziwe: Mm.
Taylor Nolan: Yeah.
Ziwe: Wow.
Taylor Nolan: When I lived here in Seattle for elementary school, I was never really aware of the fact that I was black, like there was diversity, I was friends with people from different backgrounds, never really came up, and then in sixth grade I moved to South Carolina, and was immediately made aware that I was black, and that people did not like it, and it wasn't a good thing.
Ziwe: Wild.
Taylor Nolan: Yeah.
Ziwe: Wild. How many black friends do you have?
Taylor Nolan: Ummm, do you want me to like go through and name them?
Ziwe: Whatever you want.
Taylor Nolan: I would say, Jasmine, Rachel…
Ziwe: Taylor, you don’t have to name all your black friends.
Taylor Nolan: [indiscernible name], ummm…
Ziwe: No, Taylor, you don't have to do this.
Taylor Nolan: I’ll say, I definitely have more white friends than I do black friends.
Ziwe: Really, and why is that the case?
Taylor Nolan: Um, well I think I grew up with the white side of my family. I was predominately in white centered spaces. I think I distanced myself from my blackness because I felt a lot of shame around it and had a lot of internalized racism. But that was always really tough but, yeah, I would say I have a small circle of friends in general that I'm like very close with. So, yeah.
Ziwe: How would you decolonize your mind, like how did you like unlearn racist shit?
Taylor Nolan: I think part of it was education, but I think another part of it for me was like surrounding myself with other people who experienced similar difficulties that I did. So, I'd say it's an ongoing process. But, learning how to like express and explore what blackness is and like how I experience my blackness is part of that. Um, it seems really strange to do because of like the ways that we stereotypically, identify things as being white or black. So yeah, I would say, doing my best to educate myself and expanding, expanding my circles, but also being a lot more honest with my struggles with colonization and being biracial with those people. Does that make sense?
Ziwe freezes.
Taylor Nolan: I think you're frozen.
Ziwe is frozen.
Taylor Nolan: Can you hear me?
Taylor Nolan grimaces.
Taylor Nolan: Hello!
Ziwe’s image blurs and starts to move.
Taylor Nolan: Hello!...I think she's frozen… Y'all are seeing this too? Okay.
The Live ends abruptly.
A few seconds later, Ziwe restarts the Live.
Ziwe: Guys, Instagram is tough. And that's something that we have to contend with every day. But we, I, really Taylor is such an interesting, fascinating person so you guys should go follow her. Go, go watch, listen to her podcast, Let’s Talk About It, which is, has really interesting revelations about sex, gender and race. Let's get this back. The show back on the road. What happened? Instagram happened. I can't control Instagram, I'm not in STEM! Hi, Taylor.
Taylor Nolan: Hi.
Ziwe: Thank you. Sorry that I, my computer, my phone froze as you were giving a very thoughtful and vulnerable answer, which I really appreciated, and I thought was so, I thought was so great.
Taylor Nolan: Ah, thanks. Yeah, I think it's like, it's hard for me to talk about race because I've always felt in the middle of things, and I've, I've tried, I've tried to make sure that I'm, you know, being, being gentle in the conversation and being like considerate in the conversation and being informative in the conversation while also like staying true to the really shitty difficult aspects of my truth in this where I have not always identified as, as being a black woman, where I have dealt with my own internalized racism, where I haven't always been surrounded by black friends, or any of that, so it's hard to talk about sometimes, but I'm like doing my best.
Ziwe: I love it. And I think that honesty is how we’ll heal, truly. Now, can you name five black, half-black people?
Taylor Nolan: Five half-black people that are famous?
Ziwe: Any, anyone you want.
Taylor Nolan: Trevor Noah. Um, Halle Berry. Um, King who I was just on Live with. Dustin who’s also from The Bachelor. I now, I now know a whole list of everyone from The Bachelor that is biracial because I'm doing a biracial series, four-part episode, next week I think it starts, with like everyone that's biracial from Bachelor franchise.
Ziwe: Absolutely wild. Shout out to that. We have a couple questions for you. Here's a question, do you say the n-word?
Taylor Nolan: No.
Ziwe: No.
Taylor Nolan: I do –
Ziwe: Not even –
Taylor Nolan: -- when I’m quoting someone has called me it, but like in rap songs, I don't say it. With friends, with black people, I don't say it, no.
Ziwe: Word. Okay, here's another question for you. Do you date black men?
Taylor Nolan: Do I currently? No because I currently am kind of only dating one person. Have I in the past? No, I've dated other biracial people.
Ziwe: Wow.
Taylor Nolan: Yeah.
Ziwe: Last audience question. Ah, ah, ah. Wait, here's one. Was Flavor of Love the black Bachelor?
Ziwe and Taylor Nolan laugh.
Ziwe: That's a great question.
Taylor Nolan: Uh, basically. Basically. He started, he started the black Bachelor.
Ziwe and Taylor Nolan laugh.
Taylor Nolan: Flavor Flav.
Ziwe: Oh my gosh.
Taylor Nolan: Yeah.
Ziwe: Oh, here's one, is your mom white?
Taylor Nolan: Yeah. My mom's white, my dad's black. I grew up, my mom basically like moved me away from the black side of my family when I was four. She didn’t tell anyone where she was going, and she moved me from South Jersey all the way out to Seattle. So I like never had any contact with them.
Ziwe: Wow. Now, here's the question. Sorry, there's so many good questions that I'm like, we're done, but then we're not done. How does it feel to be quote unquote the acceptable black? I think that they’re implying that being fair skinned is much –
Taylor Nolan: Yeah.
Ziwe: -- more permissible than being –
Taylor Nolan: Yeah. Yeah, on the scale of colorism, I have a lot more privilege. It feels uncomfortable because I can acknowledge and advocate, and, like, educate myself around the struggles and difficulties that darker skinned people experience in our culture, but that doesn't take away the fact that I also benefit from the fact that they struggle. So it's like a holding space of like, okay I feel guilty for this, I feel bad for this. But at the same time, it also does benefit me, and how do I move, how do I move through this so it's just, it feels [audio is choppy] blackness.
Ziwe: Okay, wow. Hey, you know what? Shout out. So you identify as biracial, but not black why is that?
Taylor Nolan: Yeah, so I think part of that is because of the, all the messaging that I did receive growing up, and I think even still to this day you know I feel…I sometimes feel like I don't have a place to say I'm black. I sometimes feel like my blackness is constantly questioned, and my blackness is not enough. And you know, even when I do engage in conversations around blackness, I'm often kind of hit in the face with well you're also light skinned, and you have privilege and like can you really say you're even black, so I think I hesitate a lot of times to even say I'm black or not, not to say I'm black, but to identify as black. You know there was, we're talking about like Venmos and stuff on here, right? Like someone did a Venmo of black femme content creators, and I listed my Venmo on there, and people were like this is only for black people. And I was like, okay, I am, but I guess, I guess maybe I shouldn't have done that then, and then had to like sit with that so it's a lot of…it's a lot to unpack
Ziwe: It’s a lot to unpack. Okay, I'm gonna list some civil rights leaders…do you want to do more questions, or do you want to… we’ll wrap this up. This is exhausting. Now…
Taylor Nolan laughs.
Ziwe: We can do more questions. I'm getting flooded with questions for you. All about being biracial. We'll do one more, and then I'm going to ask you about civil rights leaders.
Taylor Nolan: Okay.
Ziwe: Here. Okay. Well this, we’ll do two more questions. What motivated you to do The Bachelor, you seem too smart.
Taylor Nolan: Ah, yeah. Um, well I went on because it's kind of focused on two things that I was working on, like personally at the time, so I was just finishing my graduate program and was working with clients on vulnerability and control. Themes that kept coming up in the work. And then I was like trying to challenge myself with those things like I was realizing I wasn't being really vulnerable in my dating and that I really liked having control, and then the opportunity for the show came up, and I didn't really think it was going to happen like I thought it was kind of a joke. My stepdad like bullied me into it because he was really drunk and was like, you'd be great psychoanalyzing all these bitches on here, and I was like, that’s not what I'd be there to do. But then did end up taking more of an observationist role on there, but, but yeah. I was like you know okay what better way to challenge myself with being vulnerable than to like go on a national reality dating TV show and date a total stranger and, like, I would not have any control in this setting at all really. I wouldn't have control when I wake up, where I'm going, what gets aired. That it would be like a real challenge and be like, how do I sit with this and be okay with the fact that I don't have control. So I looked at it as a social experiment, but I think that a lot of really smart women go on the show because it's a really unique experience, and I don't think it makes them any less smart that they, that they engage in that.
Ziwe: Shout out to that. How are you leveraging your privilege to uplift black people in the entertainment industry and the world at large?
Taylor Nolan: Yeah, so I think, in part, I mean, I try to do that through my podcast and letting people, specifically black people, share their stories and speak on the things that they're passionate about, you know, allowing space for black women specifically who speak in wellness to have light on my podcast. Try to do that on Instagram as well, with resources that I share and content creators to follow. I would say that's kind of how I try to uplift that at least in terms of with my platform. On a day to day basis, I think it is having these conversations with friends and also sharing those resources.
Ziwe: Shout out. Okay, here's some black civil rights leaders, and then we're gonna wrap this up. Tell me what you, tell me what comes to mind when I say these people: Martin Luther King.
Taylor Nolan: First thing that comes to mind?
Ziwe: Sure.
Taylor Nolan: Selma.
Ziwe: Ida B. Wells.
Taylor Nolan: I don’t think I know who that is.
Ziwe: Assata Shakur.
Taylor Nolan: That name sounds familiar, but I don't think I know who that is either.
Ziwe: Shout out. Thurgood Marshall.
Taylor Nolan: Name sounds familiar. Don't know what they did.
Ziwe: First black Supreme Court Justice. Shirley Chisholm.
Taylor Nolan: Mmm. Nope.
Ziwe: OJ Simpson.
Taylor Nolan: Please, no. Yes, obviously I know who that is, but…
Ziwe: Lisa. Lisa Leslie.
Taylor Nolan: No.
Ziwe: Loving v. Virginia.
Taylor Nolan: No.
Ziwe: Loving v. Virginia! So that was the landmark Supreme Court Justice ruling that made interracial relationships and marriages legal. Before that it was actually illegal for a white dude, or anyone, for a white man or white woman to be with anyone of color, specifically black people. And so that was the landmark ruling that gives way for lots of mixed-race, biracial kids to be alive and celebrated today. So shout out to that. Loving v. Virginia.
Taylor Nolan: Yes, you mentioned something, like that was part of the last thing, but I also did have to put my phone down and go pee, so I missed some of the last one. But, yeah.
Ziwe: Oh, no, no, no judgment, no judgment for not knowing because I didn't know Ida B. Wells, started the NAACP. And so today, now I learned a new thing, and I will move forward with knowledge. Now, Taylor, thank you so much for doing my show. Why did you agree to come on the show today?
Taylor Nolan: Well first, Alexis had like amazing things to say about you.
Ziwe: Love Alexis.
Taylor Nolan: I met her. [Audio is unclear] Oh, I love you. Yeah, I knew that, first of all, someone DM’ed me a Reddit article about the fact that I was coming on here, and people were like Taylor's in danger. They were like, girl is not going to do good on here, and from like watching some other stuff too, I was like yeah like this conversation probably will challenge me, and I, there will be things I don't know. But that I didn't want to like not do it because I would be scared of being stupid or being uneducated because I understand that there's a lot I don't know and first of all, you're also just like very funny so I was like, right, I feel like it's gonna be good energy to like have this chat with you. But yeah, no, I mean, I think it's, I think it's uncomfortable, but I think it's good to like put yourselves, put, to put yourself in that kind of position. So, I was definitely nervous. I was like, I don't know how this is gonna go. But, but excited and appreciated that you were having me on, so.
Ziwe: Thank you, Taylor. This has been such a fruitful conversation. It's so sensitive and funny, so thank you so much. Everyone please go listen, go follow Taylor Mocha, @taymocha, and her podcast, Let’s Talk About It, on podcast websites. Alright, thanks to everyone, what a great show. Shout out to Taylor. Next week we have Petey DeAbreu, and if you donate to the US Postal Service, and you tag me, one lucky viewer who stayed for the rest of this show will get to be interviewed by me. So donate to the USPS, tag me, and one of y'all will be, one of y'all will be on the show next week with Petey DeAbreu. Okay, bye, guys. See you soon!