Ziwe interviews Kimberly Drew
TRANSCRIPT 7/23/20
Ziwe: Hi.
Kimberly Drew: Hi.
Ziwe: Hello.
Kimberly Drew: How are you?
Ziwe: I'm doing swell, Kimberly. Thank you so much for joining my Live today. How are you doing?
Kimberly Drew: I'm really good. I'm very nervous, but very good.
Ziwe: Don’t be nervous! This is going to be a wonderful, wonderful conversation. And you know, we're going to talk a little bit about George’s success and failures during his interview, but I have one question to start for you. My question is you said on the Bad Brown Aunties Podcast that you can't help but mind other people's business. You said in our discussion for the show that you wanted to ask me questions. You frequently insert, insert your opinion sometimes, you know, in people's comments and stuff. So my first question to you is, are Leos toxic?
Kimberly Drew laughs.
Kimberly Drew: No, darling, never that. We are loving, gentle, thoughtful, beautiful people. We just like to pay attention. We want a better world.
Ziwe: Kimberly, what did you think of George's performance?
Kimberly Drew: [Exhales] …is that even his real name?
Ziwe laughs.
Kimberly Drew: I love that. I love a code switch. I'm like, okay cute. Like I would love to just switch up every single thing about my identity to make money off of it.
Ziwe: Oh, speaking of making money off of things so your Instagram and Twitter is @museummammy. Do you think that domestic, black domestic workers in quotation is like good branding?
Kimberly Drew: Yes. Absolutely. I feel “mammy” is a word that like “bitch” or like the N-word has been used in a violent way against us, and I really firmly believe in reclaiming those words. Because you think about the history of the mammy, I always think about Hattie McDaniel who was a queer icon who was the first black woman to receive an Oscar. What does it mean if we reclaim that word, and that's what I've tried to do in my work.
Ziwe: I love that. By the way –
Kimberly Drew: Do you hate it though? Do you hate it?
Ziwe: Do I hate it? No, I don't. I think it's cool. I actually think, so I think you are, I love how opinionated you are online. And so, I really respect, I respect what you're doing. I just think it's really, really radical and cool and like you are such a pathfinder. So I'm like, I support, truly. Now you said on Keep It that, you said that being called a gatekeeper is offensive. What's wrong with black gatekeepers?
Kimberly Drew: Gah, it’s just such a rude word because it doesn't even get into the fact that the gates are there to be kept, you know, like so many of us are invited and given opportunities and written up in the New York Times and Vanity Fair and all these other fabulous places, but we don't talk about the systems and structures that don't allow more of us opportunities, right? Instead of criticizing those who are platformed, we don't actually ask questions of who was doing the platforming. We don't ask questions of why so many people have been disenfranchised.
Ziwe: Okay. Would you consider yourself museum's first influencer?
Kimberly Drew: Oh god. No, absolutely not, and I do not want that label. I heard when you asked Jeremy the same question. It's just, no, there's been so many people who are incredibly influential.
Ziwe: Okay. So here's a question for you. You've gone on the record saying that black women don't owe black men shit.
Kimberly Drew: Yes.
Ziwe: Why do you hate black men?
Kimberly Drew: I love black men, first of all, but I do think, and I wrote that tweet and reference specifically to Noname who was getting criticized for hating black men, which is unfair and unreasonable as an accusation, but I think in general, especially speaking to Noname, she doesn't owe anyone an apology. She doesn't owe anyone their niceness in the same way that you're doing the show like Caroline being like give me a cookie. It's like there's no cookie in this game. Period.
Ziwe: So who do you hate more black men or white people?
Kimberly Drew: Ooh, I would say I hate neither.
Ziwe: That's an interesting way to not own up to anything. Okay, you refer to yourself as a black supremacist. Do you want all white people to move back to where they came from?
Kimberly Drew: When have I ever called myself a black supremacist?
Ziwe: On the Bad Brown Aunties Podcast that I listened to this afternoon, go check it.
Kimberly Drew: Everyone, please listen to Bad Brown Aunties. Shout out to Rage and Thanu. It is an incredible, incredible project, and that's not me deflecting. Like they do great podcasts, they do great interviews. I do believe that black people are exceptional people. I will not apologize for that. I just feel like supremacy as a word, especially in this time, I'm just like [cringes]. You know, you ever read your own interview, and you're like who said that?
Ziwe: Oh, all the time. Now, so you're involved with the Wing. Do you consider yourself a white feminist?
Kimberly Drew: I am deeply not a white feminist by any definition, but I do appreciate you bringing it up because in this moment, I really do need to be called in on my relationship with the Wing. So please do it. Drag me. Everyone drag me. I loved the Wing. I loved it in its iterations. There was a time in my life where it was one of very few safe spaces for me. I had someone who was stalking me, and that was where I went to seek safe haven. So if you want to come for me, come for it. There's definitely a lot of criticisms to be made. But in a city where so many black femmes feel like there's a violence immediate and otherwise against us, there are many ways in which that place was a safe place for me. Was it a safe space for the black workers that work there? Absolutely not, and it's fucking despicable…
Ziwe: Wow.
Kimberly Drew: …and I wish I'd spoken up sooner to be quite honest.
Ziwe: Damn.
Kimberly Drew: I can own that.
Ziwe: Yeah. Okay, so on the LGBTQ&A Podcast, you disagreed with the notion that existence is resistance. Who are you to tell me what my black body means in cultural commentary?
Kimberly Drew: Ooh, I love this question. I wouldn't say that it was necessarily a criticism of how you or anyone else utilizes their body, but I do think in a moment, especially like this one, we need to be doing more than just existing. Like existing in and of itself, yes, there is incredible violence that is facing us and every breath and every opportunity that we as black people have in the world is a unique privilege, unfortunately. Meanwhile the Alison Romans of the world and all these other white people just get to freely move about the cabin, but for us living is a radical act, absolutely, but what I'd like to see is people taking very seriously the responsibility that they have with their voice.
Ziwe: Wow, preach. Okay, now here's a question for you. So you went to, like me, you went to a predominantly white New England prep school.
Kimberly Drew: Honey.
Ziwe: St.. George's, Andover. Now here's the question that I ask myself frequently, do you think that your success in media has in part to do with how palatable you are because of the prep school experience?
Kimberly Drew: Ooh, do you think that of yourself? I will absolutely answer, but I'm curious if you think that of yourself.
Ziwe: I asked you first.
Kimberly Drew: Okay, I'll happily answer first. I’ll happily answer first. Also, like everyone, I don't know how you feel about asking for Venmo donations. I hate when people are like “Venmo this person,” but honestly the work that you're doing on the show and also knowing that you went to prep school like the traumatic experiences that we have survived, honey. But yes, did I learn very intimately how to speak to people who absolutely hate me? Yes, I did. I got really skilled at quieting myself, at shrinking myself, at hating myself. Prep school does it to you. You wake up every day with these folks at their worst. Like high school is the worst, imagine not being able to go home. That's what we went through. And so, I think for myself especially, like if you look at older interviews, I was palatable as fuck. I was a very good negro. And at this point I'm just like…I don't…I'm not as invested in that like I believe so much more in the politics and the necessary nature of being really fucking messy, which is why I don't want to in any way police what you're doing on the show, and not to say that it's messy in a bad way, but I do think that there's a way that you're able to push against the status quo, to push against palatability, to push against niceness, and not in like an evil way. Like I hate anyone who's calling you evil right now because what you are doing is a public service. But yeah, we have to learn the tools to survive, honey.
Ziwe: I totally, I mean, I definitely think that the, a lot of prominent media black people are, came through like a nice college or a nice prep school, and I don't think that that's a coincidence.
Kimberly Drew: No, no because nepotism is real even if they hate us they're like…I mean the question that you ask of all of your guests, “how many black friends do you have,” and they're like four! Because they know that there's a cachet in being proximate to black people. People know there's a cachet, you know, Caroline coming on the show or Alyssa Milano, our enslaved sister coming on this show.
Ziwe laughs.
Kimberly Drew: Thinking that they're doing you a public service. Right? Like you're fucking stupid.
Ziwe: LOL!
Kimberly Drew: We hate it.
Ziwe: Who was your favorite, you've watched, so I love your comments. You, Quinta, Larry Owens, Julio Torres, Sydnee Washington, Ayo Edebiri. A lot of y'all have hilarious comments, and they make me laugh so much. So who has been your favorite and least favorite guest?
Kimberly Drew: Ooh, I love this. Um, my first interview that I watched, I think it was Nick?
And I DM’ed you after that episode.
Ziwe: Yeah, you did.
Kimberly Drew: Like I was in shock. I'm genuinely in shock. I think that this project is so good. I want every network to be in a huge bidding war to bring you on. I was watching all the YouTube videos today. That Pat Regan episode.
Ziwe: I love it.
Kimberly Drew: What?! When he storms off, I was like what is going on.
Ziwe: Amazing! I caught it!
Kimberly Drew: When he was like “June is my month, honey,” and then started screaming at you.
Ziwe: Iconic television.
Kimberly Drew: Iconic, iconic. Okay, that's probably my least favorite in like OG Baited, but new Baited, I would say Nick. New Baited, I would say Alison Roman because she's so comfortable with all the things she doesn't know. As a chef, it is your duty to care for people. Like you're making things for people to ingest. You're researching, you’re learning, you’re appropriating by nature, and that she was so comfortable in her ignorance and seriously brought it to this platform, this sacred platform that you're building, and felt no, I don't even know what the word is, like because guilt white people took that, but she felt no, like she felt light in her ignorance, and that bothered me, that bothered me a lot, and every white person that DM's me about your show, also getting on my nerves.
Ziwe: What did they say?
Kimberly Drew: Because they're like, “oh your comments were so funny,” and I'm like, babe, you could be on the show.
Ziwe laughs.
Kimberly Drew: I was going to ask you. How do you deal with white people who think they're good and therefore think that they can be proximate to you?
Ziwe: Meaning like in the ways that they…like what do you mean?
Kimberly Drew: Like where they're like, “oh my god, girl, that was so funny” and in no way own up to their own bullshit.
Ziwe: So I don't mind comments that compliment me because I'm a Pisces. I'm so sensitive. So I love compliments. I, what I do not love is the constant tagging me in racist shit being like you have to see this, you have to interview this person. That's where we get, that’s, the politics of it, of like because this show is about like agency and autonomy, and it does take away my autonomy when you do things for me, so it's, but it's like a double-edged sword because I like I have to be really open to create a like a conducive environment for like learning.
Kimberly Drew: Right.
Ziwe: And it's, it’s hard. It's not easy, but it's something that I'm willing to do because I think the art is worth it.
Kimberly Drew: Yeah. How are you taking care of yourself right now?
Ziwe: I spend a lot of time doing my makeup and that makes me so happy. Also, what else do I do? That's it really.
Kimberly Drew: Mm.
Ziwe: I just do my show every Thursday at 8 p.m. Everybody go watch the old episodes with Pat Regan and Gary Richardson and…
Kimberly Drew: Gary! Richardson! Are you guys still friends?
Ziwe: I like Gary Richardson. I think he's so funny.
Kimberly Drew: I would fight him.
Ziwe: You would?
Kimberly Drew: I would fight him.
Ziwe: Why?
Kimberly Drew: He was so rude.
Ziwe: Interesting. You have –
Kimberly Drew: The way he was talking to you? C’mon.
Ziwe: Interesting.
Kimberly Drew: It was a very like Dre and Megan Thee Stallion moment. Like it was just like no one asked you. No one was at the show to watch Gary.
Ziwe: But I asked him to, what do you mean?
Kimberly Drew: You asked him, but I'm just saying in general, he was like on his high horse as if he was doing some favor blah blah blah, and I don't know, he's, I don't know.
Ziwe: You, I get the sense and, tell me what you think, that you take it a little personally to see the way that guests react to me as like this vessel for black women.
Kimberly Drew: Absolutely.
Ziwe: Mm. Can you expand on that?
Kimberly Drew: Cause I care about you. I really love you.
Ziwe: I love you too.
Kimberly Drew: And I think you're brilliant.
Ziwe: Oh my god! I think I think you're brilliant.
Kimberly Drew: Yeah, there's a generosity that you bring to this platform that like, I don't know, people think that they can berate you and yell at you because they assume that you're like out to get them and so instead of listening, you know, even when you were talking to George about black artists, which makes everyone sweat, it's like why is, why is your voice, like why are you getting so aggravated? It's like you don't know and that's okay, and I will then explain to you who this person is. But instead of being like “I don't know who Farrakhan is,” they’re like “I don’t know who Farrakhan is!” and then give some like bullshit answer and then get angry when you correct them and it's just like if y’all don't see this is a public service then I don't know. I don't know. Like let's stop invisibilizing the labor of black women.
Ziwe: Interesting. This is inter-, this is, I did not expect this to go there, but you know what, like The Real World, it did, and I really appreciate that perspective. I think it's, I don't know. I don't always agree with you, but I, what I like is that you're really strong in your convictions. You’re really strong in your convictions. Okay. Okay, here's a question for you, Caroline Calloway, where does she stand in your general ether of like cultural knowledge?
Kimberly Drew: I honestly had no idea who she was…until you platformed her.
Ziwe: Oh, you don't want me to interview J.K. Rowling famously.
Kimberly Drew: No.
Ziwe: Why?
Kimberly Drew: Because I don't think, okay, so this, okay, so if there's any criticism that I have or any, not criticism, but more curiosity, is just where do you draw the line?
Ziwe: That's a question. So I, I don't know. There are people who I've been pitched themselves to be interviewed by me, and I'm not as eager because of what they represent. I think that they're more nefarious. I try to interview people who have good intentions- (cut off)
Kimberly Drew: So you think JK Rowling who has been adamantly transphobic has good intentions?
Ziwe: No. But also, I, when I tweet “come on my show,” I don't necessarily expect them to answer. It's more of a meme that I've created out of my, my art.
Kimberly Drew: So what’s funny about inviting a hateful person onto your show?
Ziwe: In that context, to me, it's funny because it's like this woman is clearly wylin so to invite someone and call them an “iconic guest,” it’s to say you are being out of pocket. No one has ever responded positively to those tweets. I've never booked. I have not booked Lea Michele yet. I've not booked J.K. Rowling yet. So I just, it's a meme that I've created, but I understand that it really triggers.
Kimberly Drew: Yeah. Because it's interesting to see you in the earlier weeks do fundraising for Black Trans Femmes. And then later, invite a TERF on to your show.
Ziwe: Totally.
Kimberly Drew: You see the conflict?
Ziwe: Definitely, but to me, I think that this is a moment to say hey you're wild. Like what is wrong with you? How can you ever talk about these people who are marginalized like that? Like that's just absolutely absurd that you are so rich and so you’re so concerned about these people's bodies. So I see it as a way to bring light to a lot of people who don't see this as an issue -
Kimberly Drew: Mm. Okay, so she’s a medium.
Ziwe: -and that's, that's why you have, yeah, that's what I do.
Kimberly Drew: Interesting. Yeah, because I was like I'm with it. I want to check in with you. I want to see how you doing. I'm also a Pisces Rising so I'm very sensitive too. I feel that deeply. But I was like damn. I think it's interesting to have a show where you bring people on who need to learn, who you want to have an investigative conversation with because you dedicate all this time and resource to learning about them. But when we invite people who are genuinely hateful it does, it disrespects the show. It disrespects the platform that you're building.
Ziwe: But that's not for you to say that it disrespects my show
Kimberly Drew: Mhmm.
Ziwe: But I definitely think that that point is really valid because most people are like excited -
“Oh my God, like what would a J.K. Rowling interview be like?” But here's the thing, this is not something within the realm of possibility at this moment. It just isn't like (cut off)
Kimberly Drew: So if J.K. came back to you and said, yes, I'll be on the show. What would you do?
Ziwe: I would definitely think about it and probably say yes, but that's not something I have said yes to because it's not something that exists.
Kimberly Drew: So where do you draw the limit like a Klansman or like what's the like what level of hate and racism –
Ziwe: I don’t know.
Kimberly Drew: or transphobia is like no?
Ziwe: I truly don't know. I have, I haven't crossed that bridge before. Like I, I don't, I don't know There's really some, I've really been toying with the idea of like, you know, the New York Times will write like oh we went to like the mines in South Carolina to interview like five Trump voters, right? And people are like, why would you do that? Like why are you giving these people a platform? They're so like, they’re so like out of the, out of the way, but I think it would be really interesting to have me personally talk to like five miners in South Carolina about Trump voting. Like I think that that would bring a really interesting perspective to that genre of journalism. So I'm really trying to like not only spark really interesting like racial dialogue but also critique media. So where do I draw the line at Klansmen, at TERF. I don't, I do not know. This show is ever evolving. It's an organism that exists with my audience and with my guests, so I don't know, truly.
Kimberly Drew: Interesting.
Ziwe: Yeah.
Kimberly Drew: Because I think it's, you know, there's what nearly 5,000 people watching right now.
Ziwe: Sure.
Kimberly Drew: And there's many ways that I'm benefiting from being here with you. And so I just I wonder what it means because every time there's an article that's written about you as well those names go along with you. And so I just, I trust that you will make the best decision, and I also want to be with you to do that after care if you ever want to call on me, like I'm here. I want to hear how you're feeling. But I also worry about taking very seriously extremely hateful rhetoric. Because that's what this show does. You platform people. You have really beautiful discourse with them. You research for your interviews, and then you post them. So you're continuing to perpetuate the ideas that are brought out of people in your dialogues. So I just worry about what happens when we platform. I mean it's like the op-ed section and that whole blow-up -
Ziwe: Well-
Kimberly Drew: -It's like what happens when we invite hateful people and platform them and empower them to share words that would hurt others.
Ziwe: I guess from my perspective J.K. Rowling has seven hit films with Warner Brothers. She has several books. She is, has a larger platform than I might ever have, truly. So from my perspective, I just don't, I think that I'm hitting, I'm punching up. She's pretty, pretty famous, I would argue. Actually, much more famous than me, and I think I'm great.
Kimberly Drew: So, okay, okay. I hope that you get so much more famous. You don't need J.K. That's what I’ll say.
Ziwe: I understand that. I don't think that I need J.K. That’s not (cut off)
Kimberly Drew: I don't think you need J.K. either.
Ziwe: Yeah.
Kimberly Drew: I'm with you on that. Like I don't, yeah, I don't think that there's any benefit in bringing on, like I said already, there's no benefit in bringing on hateful people, and those aren't the shoulders that any of us should be crawling on towards our ascents like…
Ziwe: I am trying to have really provocative conversations so I hope to talk to a lot of provocative people who I don't agree with fully and right now in this Instagram Live space, it's mostly people with good intentions, but who's to say where this goes, but hopefully in every single person I speak to I bring truth to power, and I take down demons. That's the goal.
Kimberly Drew nods.
Ziwe: So why did you come on this show?
Kimberly Drew: I came on the show because, actually, okay, so my idea, so everyone was watching and everyone who has texted me and been like, oh my god, why are you…like what did you do to go on Baited blah blah blah blah blah. Like beyond the fact that it's exceptional, I wanted to come on just to have a conversation with you because I think you're brilliant, and I love watching the show. I love the comment section. I love the Q&A’s. I love the looks. Okay, you look amazing today.
Ziwe: Thank you.
Kimberly Drew: Just like black excellence right here. So I wanted to come and just hang out, and I was hoping maybe we could talk later so we could have like a very like I don't know, it feels like an Oprah retrospective. Like what happened this season, you know, and then we like bring up clips.
Ziwe: I love that. No, I'm down to talk, this is, we're going to be friends, this is very cool. Before you go, please name some black artists so people, because you have an encyclopedic knowledge of art history so please drop some knowledge darts in the, just for the people in the comments so we can have, support some people, you know.
Kimberly Drew: Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, people we should support?
Ziwe: Sure.
Kimberly Drew: Let's think. I would absolutely say Texas Isaiah, who's an incredible photographer. I'd say Aya Brown, who's an incredible illustrator. Let's see. Tyler Mitchell, of course, Juliana Huxtable, Adrienne Raquel, February James, Chase Hall who I love very much, Mosie Romney who I love very much, and then beyond people, I would say it's really important to support institutions right now because a lot of black institutions, due to COVID-19, are having to shutter their doors. And so, I want to shout out The Colored Girls Museum, the Paul Robeson Museum, my birthplace the Studio Museum in Harlem, NMAAHC, the Blackstonian, so if you have resource…
Ziwe: Go support!
Kimberly Drew: Hit them up.
Ziwe: We do this for y’all. We do this for art. Guys, give it up for Kimberly Drew. They are fantastic. They are brilliant, encyclopedic knowledge of arts.
Kimberly Drew: Hi, Thelma!
Ziwe: Guys, wow that, what a great show. I'm like sweating. Guys, next week we have a fantastic show. We have Grace. Grace Kuhlenschmit. I'm so sorry if I mispronounced that, but she, she is a fantastic, hilarious comedian, and then we also have Alexis Haines AKA Alexis Neiers of The Bling Ring. So I'll see y'all next week. Thursday 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Same time. Same place. Bye!