ZIWE INTERVIEWS ALISON ROMAN 6.25.20
Ziwe: HI! How are you doing?
Alison Roman: Honestly I'm really nervous, but I’m good.
Ziwe: You’re really nervous?
Alison Roman: Yeah.
Ziwe: On a scale of black person minding their business in their house to black person minding their business at the movie theater. How nervous are you?
Alison Roman: Like a zero. Like cannot compute that so it's not registering on that scale for sure.
Ziwe: Thank you for joining this show. I think you are one of the most fascinating people on the internet so it's a privilege to talk to you about race. I’m so excited.
Alison Roman: Wow, I think you are one of the funniest people on the internet so I am very happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Ziwe: Oh my God, Alison. Thank you. Now. Let's just start it off because I actually think that you wrote one of the best apologies in white people apology tours.
Alison Roman: Mmm-hmm.
Ziwe: That's in the last three to six months so my question for you is how many women of color helped you write that apology?
Alison Roman: Um, I had three friends that I sent various drafts to that like really helped me sort of get to not only like general understanding of the things that I was actually apologizing for but like, they're also, it wasn't like they were necessarily like telling me what to say, but they're like, here's why you need to say this and like getting me to a very baseline of understanding of what I was actually apologizing for because I wasn't interested in like a vague general like learning growing bullshit, like I really wanted to like grasp why it was that I was even writing in the first place.
Ziwe: Totally. And did you pay these women of color for their emotional labor?
Alison Roman: I sent them all gifts in person –
Ziwe: Wow.
Alison Roman: And then in the mail as well and handwritten cards. Yeah.
Ziwe: Okay. I love, I love –
Alison Roman: I also, I made donations to several organizations in their name like as a thank you like to different especially like focusing on Asian-American organizations that were helping people with immigration issues with their families or stuff like that.
Ziwe: No, I love that. That's great to hear. Now speaking of Asian Americans, why do you hate Asian women?
Alison Roman: I don't hate Asian women. I don't. I don't hate anyone.
Ziwe: That's, that, you watched the Caroline Calloway interview, correct?
Alison Roman: I didn't watch it live but I did watch like pieces that you have posted. Yeah, for sure. It was probably the most talked about thing on the internet since me.
Ziwe: Oh, thank you. I can tell you watched it because you are not being as, maybe as full of words as you could be, and you took notes. Now, here's a question for you. Where were you the moment that you realized that you were getting cancelled?
Alison Roman: I was at home. I was home alone. It was a Friday night, and it felt like I had taken drugs, but I hadn't. Like I was like is this real life? Like what is happening? Is this really happening? And then I woke up in the morning on that Saturday and was like is this still happening? And it was then that I knew that it was happening.
Ziwe: Wild. I think one of the biggest examples of white privilege is being able to talk shit about your boss. Did you know Chrissy Teigen was the EP of your show when you mentioned her in that article?
Alison Roman: So she's not, and she never was, and I don't know how much I can say on that…
Ziwe: Tea!
Alison Roman: But that is true, and you can consult the right people with that, but that was a challenging comment because it wasn't true, and it wasn't the time or place for me to correct that because the issue was like that felt really petty to be like not true! Nuh-uh! Like I wanted to sort of focus on what I thought was the bigger issue which was like why it was so offensive that I singled out two Asian women rather than like naming other people like that detail felt like it was more in defense of myself, but that's factually inaccurate.
Ziwe: Wow. I love that I just got an exclusive. I think this is my first livestream exclusive. So that's pretty awesome.
Alison Roman: Yeah, this is exclusive.
Ziwe: Thank you. Thank you. And as far as Marie Kondo is concerned, what did that nice lady ever do to you?
Alison Roman: She never did anything to me. I feel like an absolute piece of garbage for dragging either of their names, and she, we, I reached out to her. I sent her like a separate apology. We didn't hear back from her people which is fine either she's like I do not care or she's like fuck yourself. Either way is fine. But yeah, she never did anything to me.
Ziwe: Does not spark joy. Now, would you consider yourself the Christopher Columbus of food influencing?
Alison Roman: No, I wouldn't.
Ziwe: How do you describe the difference between curry and stew?
Alison Roman: I think that a curry is like a very complex dish that is built with like different layers and different combinations of spices. It can come from like several different parts of the world. There are Indian curries, and Caribbean curries, and African curries, and Afro-Caribbean curries, Thai curries, Malaysian curries, and I feel like a stew is a generic blanket term for like a thick soupy liquid dinner.
Ziwe: Okay, that's interesting. Now, I've read a couple of your recipes, specifically I read your recipe on collard greens which has cashews and lime. Which black person taught you how to cook collard greens? And why did you degrade their recipe?
Alison Roman: No, Black person has ever taught me to cook collard greens. I was using them…I think the recipe you're referencing is like from like eight, like seven years ago, maybe six or seven years ago for Bon Appetit. I think it was a Thanksgiving story and, or no, maybe it was a, I think it was a story on greens like healthy greens or something, and so in the story it was like each recipe was supposed to use a different type of green like mustard greens and kale, and you know, collard greens and swiss charred, and I really like collard greens like kind of just cooked. So they're like they just they're not like long cooked greens and the way that I've seen them be done, but I kind of enjoy them a little bit crunchy and a little bit like leafy still. Yeah, I don't know.
Ziwe: I also love -
Alison Roman: Yeah.
Ziwe: - I also love colored greens as well. They’re delicious. Now, what is it like to be a gorgeous white woman? What is that experience for you?
Alison Roman: That is nice of you to say, um, I don't know. I don't know why, I don't know. I've never, I have not thought of myself as that like ever in my life. I think what it's like to be a white woman is like born into a place of very obvious privilege that you might be unaware of until somebody or millions of people point it out to you on the internet. And um…yeah….it's…yeah.
Ziwe: Okay and so are you Italian? I think I read that somewhere.
Alison Roman: No, I think that's just misleading because my last name is Roman so people think that I am. I'm like Irish, German, and Russian.
Ziwe: Okay, Irish, German, and Russian. So you had a quote that said :I come from no culture. I have no culture. I'm vaguely European.: Why would you disrespect the Irish, Russian side of you like that?
Alison Roman: Um, not trying to disrespect it. It's more that I wasn't raised with it. Like I grew up in LA. I grew up in the Valley. I grew up like -
Ziwe: The Valley.
Alison Roman: Yeah, I know how could you not tell?
Ziwe gets close to the camera and nods.
Alison Roman: Like, yeah, exactly. I grew up like eating food in Los Angeles. Like we go to Thai Town, we go to Koreatown. We eat tacos in a truck like we would get takeout from the Cuban restaurant. We would get sushi, we would get like, it was just like a big thing. Like we, none of our holidays except for the Jewish ones celebrated any sort of culture like my grandmother who was Irish, she was a first-generation American but like she didn't come over with any sort of history or like things to pass on. And I didn't know my mom's parents at all so like I just felt like when I said that it was more like I don't feel ownership over any type of food or, other than like the Russian Jewish part, which is probably the deepest connection I have but even that is like admittedly pretty shallow because it was just my grandfather, and I didn't know the rest of his family either. But yeah.
Ziwe: Would you consider Irish people the negroes of the white community?
Alison Roman: I am not, uhh, no, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not, I’m really not qualified to answer that.
Ziwe: How many black friends do you have, Alison Roman?
Alison Roman: Do you define friend like someone who would pick me up at the airport or like people I follow or people that I know? Because I have like, I would say four to five Black friends that would pick me up at the airport.
Ziwe: Four to five! You are the third person to say they have four to five black friends in the last week to me. Caroline Calloway, Nick Ciarelli, and yourself -
Alison Roman: Oh.
Ziwe: - That’s an interesting statistic.
Alison Roman: I actually didn’t see that part of them. I mean, yeah, I, but that's like I know a lot more Black people than that that are like friends of mine or friendly or they're like friends’ husbands or wives or partners and people that I know through work, but I mean like actual friends. But like in the grand total of actual friends I have that would pick me up at the airport is probably like 12 to 13.
Ziwe: Okay, so do your Black friends know that you treat them like objects?
Alison Roman: [laughs]
Ziwe: Now, what do you qualitatively like about black people?
Alison Roman: Um… qualitatively… uh, that… I mean, I can say what I like qualitatively about my Black friends or generally speaking?
Ziwe: However you interpret the question.
Alison Roman: Umm, qualitatively, um I love that they…. their food almost always tastes better than mine…
Ziwe: Okay. We’re going to stop you right there.
Alison Roman: …They’re way better dancers…
Ziwe: We’re going to stop you right there! We’re going to stop you! I’m doing you a favor. [laughing] Okay.
Ziwe How have you decolonized your mind in the last month?
Alison Roman: The easiest way to do it for now is like a two-fold thing, which is reading a lot of books that I pay for by supporting Black authors and also having conversations with people that I feel like, not an emotional labor part, but like, being, participating in a dialogue rather than like asking people to teach me something.
Ziwe: Totally. What are your, who are your favorite black authors?
Alison Roman: Um, I've always been a huge James Baldwin fan and, like that aside, like this whole thing aside, like I… ingesting Black culture in the form of like music or art or anything isn't a new thing since like getting cancelled or since all of this, but I have been making more of an effort to like, um read more books, especially by Black women just for different like a perspective that I haven't otherwise had.
Ziwe: I love that. I mean, I love anybody who can like, reads black authors. I support that. Let's just go through a couple of black civil rights leaders, and you tell me what comes to mind. Okay, Martin Luther King.
Alison Roman: What about him?
Ziwe: Do you…who is he?
Alison Roman: He was the leader of the civil rights movement, and he was assassinated.
Ziwe: Okay, cool. Malcolm X.
Alison Roman: Uh, he was also a leader of the civil rights movement, but more I feel like polarizing. He was also assassinated. There's a Boulevard named after him in Harlem.
Ziwe: There’s a boulevard named after him in Harlem. Okay, Rosa Parks.
Alison Roman: She was a woman who did a protest on a bus. When they asked her to move to the back and she refused.
Ziwe: Okay, Huey P. Newton.
Alison Roman: I don't know him.
Ziwe: Okay, you watched the Caroline Calloway interview, but you didn't look up Huey P. Newton.
Alison Roman: I didn't hear that part. Like I only watched flashes. I also didn't want to like watch hers and then try to over correct anything because I trust you and I trust myself but I didn't want to feel like I was studying somebody else. Like I don't know.
Ziwe: I respect that. I think that I actually prefer when they don't, when y’all don't watch the interviews. Now Marcus Garvey.
Alison Roman: Uh, Marcus Garvey… there’s a street named after him in Bed-Stuy…He’s also -
Ziwe: You know a lot of streets!
Alison Roman: I know. I also have the shittiest memory and am horrible at history. That's embarrassing.
Ziwe: Angela Davis?
Alison Roman: Angela Davis is an activist, and she speaks out on, like she's been around since the 70s and then she recently has started talking again about like defunding the police and you know, that segment of the movement.
Ziwe: What about Louis Farrakhan?
Alison Roman: Louis Farrakhan is… also… a member…he was. I know what he looks like. I have his face in my head.
Ziwe: [laughs].
Alison Roman: I'm sorry. I know, I feel like it would have been really, yeah.
Ziwe: Iconic. Okay. Where do you stand on Booker T. Washington versus W.E.B. Du Bois?
Alison Roman: I am not familiar enough with W.E.B. Du Bois, but I don't stand in any place with the two of them.
Ziwe: Have you recently retweeted Shaun King?
Alison Roman: No, never, I don't even follow him.
Ziwe: Okay, cool. Just making sure that you're down with the cause. Can you name five black people off the top of your head?
Alison Roman: Uh, yeah. Issa Rae. Um Tessa Thompson, uh Barry Jenkins, uh James Baldwin, does that count I just named him?
Ziwe: Yeah, it counts, but you're definitely struggling.
Alison Roman: No, I'm not, I'm just really nervous. I'm sorry. I know this sounds insane. I just really am nervous. I know so many more people -
Ziwe: No, you're doing a fucking fantastic job, and personally as a host, there's no judgment coming from me. The comments however are a different story.
Alison Roman: Yeah, I'm not reading the comments. I'm not, it's not…yeah. I’ve stopped reading the comments long ago.
Ziwe: Name a fifth black person.
Alison Roman: Oh! Uh, fuck, uh why… you could ask me to name like literally any person right now, and I would absolutely shit the bed. Bryant Terry. He's a chef and cookbook author.
Ziwe: Okay, great. I'm glad that you're promoting your peers. That's really happy for me to hear. Now, can you name five Asian people?
Alison Roman: Yes. Chrissy Teigen. No, um, just kidding Chrissy Teigan.
Ziwe: Oh, she’s not Asian? !
Alison Roman: No, she is Asian! She is Asian!
Ziwe: Yeah!
Alison Roman: Bowen Yang. Um, Cathy Park Hong. Um, why is my face like literally on fucking fire right now?
Ziwe: Yes it is. [laughing]
Alison Roman: And this isn't that, this is not hard, and I am absolutely fucking blowing it. I'm sure people are like eating the shit up. I, it is, it is, I feel like…whatever I am embarrassed for myself.
Ziwe: No, you're fantastic.
Alison Roman: I am not fantastic. Constance Wu. That was very low hanging fruit. I'm like naming just like famous actors that I know. Well Cathy Park Hong is an author. Um…Jia Tolentino.
Ziwe: Okay, you did it and that was.. a… stretch. Now, Caroline Calloway last week described something called ally cookies, which is what you would give to an ally who did the bare minimum. You are obviously a very talented chef. You cook and you make lots of great recipes. What would you put in an ally cookie?
Alison Roman: I feel like that concept is dumb, and I wouldn't.
Ziwe: Smart. I like you. Okay, next question. So you worked at Bon Appetit, I was reading. What was it like when you were there? Was the climate as harsh for black people?
Alison Roman: Umm, interesting question, and the answer is there were no Black people when I worked there.
Ziwe: And what did you do to change that?
Alison Roman: I didn't do anything to change that. I was, I had started at like a very very low position and then kind of worked my way up and then like never thought that, I didn't, I never felt empowered to like make any decisions based on hiring or speaking up or like it was a pretty intense culture of like old-school media hierarchy, and um…I didn't do anything to better the situation for anyone. I think that like everybody collectively was trying to like make a livable wage and like, like feel like they were being heard in any way and then any person that was not at that like top percentage, it wasn't , you weren't like invited to the conversation anyway.
Ziwe: Hmm interesting. Now Halloween is coming. Are you going to be chola Amy Winehouse this year?
Alison Roman: No, I will not be.
Long pause.
Ziwe laughs.
Ziwe: Can you explain that costume for the record?
Alison Roman: Yeah, for the record. It was a dumb Amy Winehouse costume that I literally put together in 40 seconds and like was drunk probably when I did it and like didn't look up the historical accuracy of any tattoos, and it was just like I knew she had a mole here, and I already had hoop earrings in a white tank top and I was like, okay and that was that. It was… I can't even I yeah, and that’s like the honest truth, and I don't….yeah.
Ziwe: Okay, now have you ever called the police on a person before?
Alison Roman: Not any person, no.
Ziwe: If I were to say rob you in an alleyway, would you call the police?
Alison Roman: Probably not. You personally, no.
Ziwe: If I were to, if a black person, not necessarily me, were to stab you repeatedly and you needed help, would you call 9-1-1?
Alison Roman: Um, if I was able to, I would try to get some sort of medical help. Yes.
Ziwe: And if you are calling the dispatcher, and they said could you describe the person who assaulted you, what would you say?
Alison Roman: I would try to remember them, and like if they were wearing a mask, I would say they're wearing a mask, and I would try to describe their height, and I guess as many descriptive qualities as possible from what they're wearing…
Ziwe: Totally.
Alison Roman: …to their skin tone.
Ziwe: I love that. Let's do a little role-playing so I'm 9-1-1. Hello 9-1-1, you were assaulted and what was the race of the person?
Alison Roman: They appear Black ---
Ziwe: Wow!
Alison Roman: --- from what I remember.
Ziwe: Wow, Alison! I was liking you.
Alison Roman: I know. I mean what, what is the answer for that? Like if, like if, say I stabbed you and they're like, what did she look like? What would you say?
Ziwe: [laughs]
Alison Roman: Like what, like, you know what I mean? I feel like just blank descriptively and I wouldn't, I, you know, I mean, maybe I, I feel like if I, yeah, just baseline descriptive I would say yellow shirt, short hair.
Ziwe: And then, they were black. Okay. Great. We have 86 submitted questions. Let's go through some of them now. I’ll click this. Oh, name your favorite black chef.
Alison Roman: That's easy. I love Edna Lewis. I love everything that, I think her whole like
style of cookbook writing is really inspiring. And yeah. I like a lot of old cookbooks from a different time ,and I thought she was like she'd, the way that she wrote recipes was like very much ahead of her time in a way that I didn't see it happening with anyone else.
Ziwe: Would you pledge your year's wages to this black woman cook and chef ?
Alison Roman: My year's wages?
Ziwe: Yeah.
Alison Roman: Um, yes if she were alive.
Ziwe: Well, I honestly, I didn't know she was dead and that's my ignorance, now, and guys, I'm not afraid to apologize. Okay. How have you decolonized your mind as a chef? That’s a good question.
Alison Roman: Yeah!
Ziwe: You use a lot of spices that are famously from India and from Asia and Africa, and you've been accused of sort of gentrifying certain recipes so how do you decolonize that space?
Alison Roman: Um, yeah. I think that that's a conversation that I'm having with myself pretty much constantly these days and also people in my field and in my space that like also develop recipes as a person that has done this my whole life and considers themselves like a creative individual. Right? So I am not always referencing something else when I'm coming up with the recipe. I feel like a lot of it is intuitive cooking, just like any professional chef, and I think that I need to do a lot more work when it comes to just making sure that the people that are my audience understand where ingredients come from and why I'm using them rather than me just assuming that like people know about fish sauce or turmeric. Like that, someone was playing a drinking game every time I said the word turmeric, so whoever's doing that they could take a shot. But yeah…
Ziwe: Responsible drinking.
Alison Roman: Yeah I feel like I took for granted that people understood those things, and I need to do a much better job of making sure that it's very clear that these ingredients have a history and a story and come from a place and educating people.
Ziwe: Okay, here's a question. Did I ask you this? Have you, do you say racial slurs? When was the last time you said a racial slur?
Alison Roman: Literally never.
Ziwe: Never. Never, when you were listen to listening to a rap song like, you know..?
Alison Roman: No, I cannot. No, I just skip the word.
Ziwe: Okay, you don’t, do you think it in your head?
Alison Roman: No.
Ziwe: Okay, interesting. What is your favorite privilege for being white?
Alison Roman: Um, favorite privilege for being white probably like feeling safe and taking that for granted and like not having to worry about like literally leaving the house and something happening to me.
Ziwe: I respect that. Now, okay, we're going to wrap up this interview because this has been so thoughtful. You've given me such great answers, and you've been so vulnerable so I just personally want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me because thank you like you've been great. Now questions for you. My next question is did your family own slaves?
Alison Roman: No. Everyone in my family like my grandparents on my dad's side were both first-generation American and their families did not own slaves where they came from and Ireland and also Russia. And then my mom's parents, her mom was from Wales and came over like in like the 1940s maybe, and then I actually, my grandfather on that side, also immigrated think immigrated from Germany but like, but after. No, nobody owned slaves. I'm just making sure, but no.
Ziwe: This is a long walk just to say “no”.
Alison Roman: I'm just making sure I could say with a hundred percent confidence that, what, no.
Ziwe: Okay last question of the day. Will you commit to paying everyone in the comment section that is an Asian person or a black person reparations via Venmo?
Alison Roman: Every single person? Do, does, can I donate to a charity of your choosing?
Ziwe: Of course.\
Ziwe: All right guys, thank you so much, Alison Roman. You have been fantastic. Oh actually one more question. Did I ask you why did you agree to do this?
Alison Roman: Because I think you're really funny, and I love watching you interview people, and I think that, that one of the best ways to talk about the things that you talked about is to do it very directly even if it's very uncomfortable, and I think a lot of the conversations that need to happen are going to be really uncomfortable, and I think that's okay. And I think that really good stuff can come from it and hopefully people can see that it's like okay to put yourself in a vulnerable position and not have the answers but like go look up the answers and like educate yourself further and it's going to suck and be weird and uncomfortable sometimes but I think that that's when the good shit happens so.
Ziwe: You know I love that and I'm going to use that in my pitch deck when I sell this show. Thank you so much, Alison Roman, you’ve been fantastic.
Alison Roman: Thank you.
Ziwe: Everyone go follow Alison. What a lovely, lovely, lovely, guest. Gave us fantastic answers.